Introduction ~ Top

In September of 2004, I compared the 1993 Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) report on Freemasonry with Bill Gordon’s Closer Look at Freemasonry, both of which are posted on the North American Mission Board’s web site in two different areas. With the Closer Look was a Comparison Chart that in a round-about way summarized the Closer Look.

I called and talked with Bill Gordon of the Interfaith Witness department, some of which is recalled in my letter to Tal Davis who is the director of that department.

I wanted to discover Bill Gordon’s rationale for deteriorating the 1993 SBC report into his Closer Look. But our conversation went south too quickly, truly and sadly at the moment he discovered I was not totally on his side. Bill’s response below to my e-mail query to Tal Davis says it all. I misrepresented him, and even though I told them I was cataloguing these, he did not betray the misrepresentation.

What is clear is that today, November 2004, I still do not have the date of Gordon’s Closer Look or the authors of the 1993 report. I have made contact with Gary Leazer who wrote the 75-page report mentioned in the 1993 report, which was “deep sixed” according to Bill Gordon.

I almost regret referring to Bill Gordon’s response as “cowardly”—almost regret, but that is what it was. What ever Gordon implied in my misrepresentations of our phone call is moot compared to his non-defense of his sloppy and slanderous Closer Look. And I say that this retreating by Gordon is doubly indicative when he—and now Tal Davis—as official representatives of the SBC can make stand behind such a flawed report that questions the integrity of such men as George Washington and George W. Truett. Gordon had the audacity to question Truett’s education too, as though that lack of whatever standard Gordon was holding up should further question Truett’s intelligence.

The entirety of Bill Gordon’s Closer Look is based upon too few references to support his cold-hearted judgment that Freemasonry is a pagan religion. With his Comparison Chart assuming paganism as Freemasonry, it is a snap to biblically challenge paganism. But the real problem is what Freemasonry is as opposed to what Gordon makes scant reference to and then jumps into a logical-transporter and beams his readers from his scant references across the galaxy to the pagan moon of his own construction in his Closer Look; once on the his pagan moon, he takes us on his Disney tour with his comparison chart that has no reference to the 1993 report. The journey is complete—at least in Bill Gordon’s own mind, as below—for he has chosen not to look at the character of thousands as having any value at all, they are just mislead. A Disney tour indeed.

Perhaps the most amazing thing of all in Gordon’s response is how he brings up Catholicism and how he has no need to be accountable to superiors, which was not only cheesy, but revealed his own pontifical manner. He wrote the Closer Look and therefore the integrity of thousands of Baptist Freemasons (past and present) are mislead … period, and that without a single interview. A Disney tour indeed.

1. Maness Initial E-mail to Bill Gordon: 9-9-4, 10 AM

2. Maness Initial Question to Tal Davis: 9-9-04, 8 PM

3. Tal Davis 1st and Only Reply: 9-13-04, 9 AM

4. Bill Gordon’s Response: 9-13-04, 3 PM

5. Maness Question to Tal Davis 1st Try: 9-14-04, 8 AM

6. Maness Question to Tal Davis 2nd & Last Try: 9-14-04, 6 PM

7. Paige Patterson E-mail to Maness: 9-30-4, 4 PM

8. Maness Response to Patterson: 9-14-4, 6 PM

1. Maness Initial E-Mail to Bill Gordon — 9-9-04, 10:20 AM ~ Top

From: MGManess — Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 10:20 AM
To: Bill Gordon — Subject: Closer Look

Bill,

You mentioned that you wrote the Closer Look at Freemasonry. When did you do that, shortly after the 1993 report maybe, 1994?

How would I get a hold of Gary Leisure—would you know per chance?

Mike — ###

2. Maness Initial Question to Tal Davis: 9-9-04, 8 PM ~ Top

From: MGManess; Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:31 PM
To: Davis, Tal; Subject: Closer Look

Tal,

I talked with Bill the other day about Freemasonry.

He informed that he wrote the Closer Look material on Freemasonry.

I just e-mailed him on the date of that material, but have not heard back.

Anyway, we had a great conversation until he found out I was not totally against Freemasonry. I questioned the clear line he took to throw all of Masonry into paganism, unlike the 1993 report to the SBC which he said was schizophrenic.

He also said the 75-page document mentioned in the 1993 was “deep sixed”—which was interesting. Do you have an old copy of that? Know someone who does? Bill mentioned that man named Gary Leisure (spelling?) had written the 75-page report mentioned in the 1993 report and that was cut off -- deep sixed, said Bill, because Gary was found corresponding with Masons. Can you give me more information on Leisure, his current e-mail, address or contact info?

I told Bill I was researching Freemasonry too – and that I was Criswell, SWBTS, and NOBTS graduate. I am seriously researching this and want input, and am cataloguing my dialogues as I go.

This is very serious to me because I respect George Washington and George W. Truett. I think their reputations with thousands of others merited more. When I asked Bill about the reputations of them—Washington, Truett, B.H. Carrol, W.T. Conner, Scarborough, Abner McCall, and how according to Bill’s report that ALL of them were duped—Bill said, I quote you, “I have no problem with that.”

Well Tal, I have a problem with that. Bill and I agree to disagree--but I shall not rest with that. From the 1993 report, Bill mutated the 8 points into a Closer Look that defames, and then the comparison chart mutates again – essentially – making the SBC's official stance that ALL Freemasonry is paganism (even contrary to the 1993 report). As such, the SBC then clearly makes dupes out of many of our founding fathers, several SBC theological titans, and many more.

I think Bill’s Closer Look is a farce not resembling anything like real research -- my goodness.

Will you help me get some accurate information so that this piece of history can be accurate recorded.

And again – Gary Leisure – I truly need to get with him too, to record some of his side.

To chronicle the history further, do you have the author/s of the 1993 report that went into the

1993 Annual of the Southern Baptist Convention reported on your web site?

Thanks for your help with these things.

Sincerely, Mike Maness — ###

3. Tal Davis 1st and Only Reply: 9-13-04, 9 AM ~ Top

From: Davis, Tal; Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:43 AM
To: mgmaness@earthlink.net; cc: Gordon, Bill; Subject: RE: Closer Look

Mr. Maness:

Dr. Gordon is our specialist in this area of research and study. We stand behind the accuracy of his work. We do not have copies of the 75 page Home Mission Board study available nor do I know how to contact Gary Leazer.

Tal Davis, Interfaith Evangelism,
North American Mission Board, 770/ 410-6339
mailto:tdavis@namb.net, http://www.namb.net/interfaith — ###

4. Bill Gordon’s Response: 9-13-04, 3 PM ~ Top

From: Gordon, Bill; Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:05 PM
To: mgmaness@earthlink.net; cc: Gordon, Bill; Subject: RE: Closer Look

Dear Dr. Maness,

Dr. Davis has asked me to respond to the email that you sent him.

I do not want to get into all the areas in which I think you misrepresented our phone conversation or to debate your positions on Freemasonry or the Openness of God controversy.

I do want to respond to the problem that you have with my position on George Washington, George Truett, B. H. Carrol, W. T. Conner, Scarborough, and other men that you claim were masons. In general I have great respect for these men. But, just because I respect someone does not mean that I must agree with everything that they did or with every association they may have joined. Baptists believe that the Scriptures are inerrant, but that Christian leaders are fallible. Unlike Roman Catholics, we have no group of Church Fathers that we must consult before determining what to believe. I therefore have no problem believing that these men were mislead or mistaken on the subject of Freemasonry.

Both my conversation with you on the phone and your email to Dr. Davis leads us to conclude that further conversation with you on this subject would be unproductive. This will be our last communication with you.

Sincerely, Bill Gordon, Th.D. — ###

5. Maness Question to Tal Davis 1st Try: 9-14-04, 8 AM ~ Top

From: MGManess; Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:26 AM
To: Davis, Tal; Subject: Closer Look [few spelling corrections made]

Tal,

Thank you for responding.

I am still interested in the date of the Closer Look.

I am sad that Bill chose to misrepresent me too or even not respond to the more direct questions of my inquiry.

Believe me, Bill said clearly the 75-page report was “deep-sixed” and clearly that he “no problem” with how his Closer Look made dupes out of some sterling Baptists. Only after the conversation where it was clear I was not fully in his corner did his vociferous stance wane.

Tal, can you help me get a date for the Closer Look. While Bill is right that we are not like the Catholics, he also indicates in his comments that he has no obligation to fellow Southern Baptists (at least those who misrepresent his phone calls -- as he alleges I did). What actually happened was that his fire burned as I listened--I am chaplain--and then when I asked about the good men, sterling leaders of enormous contribution (in leadership and theology) who appear to be dupes not able to distinguish paganism—only then—a double-take was made. And that, Tal, is why Bill will not like recapitulating our conversation.

Tal – the integrity of good men are important to Southern Baptists. The Closer Look makes Freemasonry pagan—simple and clean, and Bill’s expertise did not reveal or expose how the fraternity truly relates itself. I am writing a history, and I asked some clear and clean historical questions--and listened to Bill's fire and his defense of his work too. Bill and I do disagree on what productive conversation is, that is for sure. Bill wrote an important piece that slices good men in the past and present based primarily on only two sources and apparently independent of the 1993 report.

Surely, Tal, you can see the need to distinguish between the Bill's Closer Look and the 1993 SBC Report.

Could you help me get the date please? This report will be more accurate with the facts. I tried to ascertain from Bill the reasons he varied from the 1993 Report, but our conversation would not allow that. His report was viewed and approved by the highest persons on the Board, he said, as though they had done similar work or were similar experts as he was. Getting to the facts is hard work.

It is clear Bill does not want to talk with me further, and it is natural for you to believe I misrepresented him on his word (though I did not, and his manner is reflected in the Closer Look too).

In sum, Tal, could you help me get the date of the Closer Look at least. Secondly, it would be helpful to know Bill's rationale for culling the 1993 SBC Report and moving the stance “concerns” to 8 “incompatibilities” and to a clearly and solely pagan faith for the fraternity of Freemasonry. These are important concerns to a good history. It is also important to know as well that Bill just will not answer that, as he says below (and would not on our phone conversation either), or even further address that from his supervisor encouragement.

Thanks for whatever you can do here. The date is most important. I pasted Bill's e-mail response to me below too.

Sincerely, Mike

I also told him I was not a full Open Theist, and encouraged him to get my book in our conversation there too (which on me, he misrepresented too).

You can see my work the debate between Classical and Open Theism in my book Heart of the Living God at www.preciousheart.net -- — ###

6. Maness Question to Tal Davis 2nd & Last Try: 9-14-04, 6 PM ~ Top

From: MGManess; Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:03 PM
To: Davis, Tal; Subject: Closer Look [few spelling corrections made]

Tal,

With the date of the Closer Look--I forgot--could you tell me (or direct me to who would know) the author/s of the 1993 report that went into the 1993 Annual of the Southern Baptist Convention reported on your web site?

A good history should have this information.

Tal--please--these are very serious inquiries. George Truett was a hero of mine after 7.5 years at the Criswell College in downtown Dallas (1978-1985) under Paige Patterson, and then B.H. Carroll too at SWBTS in FW (1985-1990). For someone like Bill to say these men were mislead based upon two references and to deteriorate the 1993 into his Closer Look is hardly a closer look. And I have amassed a lot of material to that affect.

George Washington too, and thousands of others past and present.

The date of the Closer Look is a simple matter--one question--and the 1993 report should have complete history too. I truly desire to know these two things.

And Bill's non-responsiveness to these is nearly as offensive as the Closer Look's lack of support, and the choice of retreat in misrepresentation rather than dialogue is cowardly. Which begs further for his motives and rationale in deteriorating the 1993 report without adding anything to the Closer Look.

But I should like the questions on the date of the Closer Look and the authors of the 1993 answered, with all due respect and Christian honor. This is about the integrity (not just the respect) of many good men past and present--even my own.

Sincerely, Mike Maness — ###

7. Paige Patterson e-mail to Maness — 9-30-04, 4 PM ~ Top

From: Paige Patterson — Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:23 PM

To: Tal Davis — Subject: Freemasonry

September 24, 2004

Dr. Mike Maness ~ mgmaness@earthlink.net

Dear Mike:

Dr. Bill Gordon has made me aware of your communication with him about Freemasonry. I just want to make very sure of one thing. If you are going to support causes like Freemasonry, which is by the nature of the case a secret society and therefore unworthy of any New Testament Christian’s support, then please leave my name completely out of it. I have no idea to what degree some of the people that you listed were actually involved in the Masonic order, but Dr. Criswell, for example, had nothing to do with it at all. I wish that he had resigned from it. He never did, but he also never attended, including even in the earliest days. The same was true of my father. Dr. Draper, on the other hand, did resign from it and sent a letter of testimony as to why.

Interestingly, Mike, about the only time my physical life was ever threatened prior to the Convention controversy was twice by Masons, and that has happened a number of times since. Anybody watching the effects of Masonic involvement among Southern Baptist laymen could only conclude that this was a dangerously flawed alliance. I am disappointed in your support of the Masonic order as well as the obstructionist and sometimes misleading conduct of Gary Leazer while he was working at the North American Mission Board. Mike, what has happened to you?

Until He Comes, Paige Patterson

PP:cv — ###

8. Maness Response to Patterson — 9-14-4, 6 PM ~ Top

From: MGManess; Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:03 PM
To: Davis, Tal; Subject: Closer Look [few spelling corrections made]

Paige,

It grieves me that anyone would threaten your life, especially a mason.

You should also know -- I know you do -- that there are wacko and extremists in every large and generally well-respected group. Even in the SBC and Christianity for the last 2,000 years.

I did not know that Criswell or your father were masons, either--Draper either. That is surprising and good to know. It is honorable that Draper withdrew when he did not concur. That confirms in a round about manner one point further, that many more outstanding men with sterling character and reputation have been masons -- and did not resign.

Your name shall not be a part of this study, unless it becomes part of the history before the study is done.

I am not fully surprised—though certainly flattered and glad—that Bill Gordon would contact you over my communication with him.

He misrepresented me in our phone call with Tal, then abruptly retreated. Oh, I did mention your name as well as Dilday’s and Kelly’s to him over the phone, as well as my 8 years at Criswell (1978-85), 5 at SWBTS (1985-90), and 3 at NOBTS (1995-97), in order to let him know I was not a fly-by-night researcher in my call. I've attached my e-mails for your own perusal, which I am sure he did not share. I regret—though only a little—responding just a few hairs over the top to Tal. That is part of my own cataloguing of my own foibles as well. You see, my conversation with Tal took a southward turn immediately after he discerned I was not a fellow anti-mason.

It was a funny phone conversation, and Bill knows it. I suspect with little doubt that his call to you was more pre-emptive than anything else. Attached is a copy of the e-mails, for your information. In a round about way even backward way, I got all the information and more I needed from my phone call and his and Tal’s response for my study's purpose.

Among the reasons for my call to him was to discern the author of the Closer Look and the date, a normal question for a researcher (though I never did get to the date in my conversation, as he was so overblown with every anti-mason line—uncanny) and so I followed through with e-mails too in asking for the dates and authors of the 1993 report, Closer Look, and pressed for the Bill's rationale. You can read that.

I want you to know—without equivocation—you shall never know how much you were a part of my life. You were among a small handful of father figures that I respected and would have followed of cliff after my father’s passing in 1982 and from whom excreted an enormous amount of influence on me in your example as well as in all the unilateral transference I placed.

We are called—above all—to Love God and others in the light of inerrant and holy Scripture. In that, you were an example and have been a unique and pivotal leader.

Paige, thank you for being honest. Your, "Mike, what has happened to you?" shall be mulled over in sincerity—sincerely, even hugged. It is part of the first communication initiated by you to me in—say—20+ years. Of course, you had not way of knowing your impact.

What I regret is that your communication was not first about my prior study of which you were a significant part of the history. Doubtlessly, Bill mentioned open theism too, as he misrepresented in his e-mail (as though it was as a large a part of our talk—he cannot help himself). I am not a full open theist, and have done some substantial work there—that you know.

It is published—and I was hoping word would get to you from more academic sources than Bill—as I have sent a copy to many and still have more on the list to send it too. Of you, I am sincerely afraid, because unlike Bill—in fact opposite to Bill—you have little fear about articulating where you stand and why. Though at times you have over-reacted without due examination.

Perhaps I should have sent you a copy first out of the bag—and for not doing so—that is my own lack of courage. Fear of further rejection too, as it appears we have parted ways on some issues and are unable to communicate much. But appendix 7 in this book is about my relationship to you, as well as a challenge to you too—quite extensive too. If you buy a copy, I shall be glad to sign it personally—even make the trip to Fort Worth to do so. Here’s link to my site which has a near up-to-date contents and an “order now” button to take you to the publisher (just $26 for 700 pages, a real bargain).

Order Now

Heart of the Living God

Love, Free Will, Foreknowledge, Heaven

A Theology on the Treasure of Love

The 1,500+ years old Free-Will/Foreknowledge debate continues today. Where is your genuine relationship with God if, 1,000 years ago, God's knowledge of what you would do tomorrow was settled? Love is greater than that.

--Plus several counterpoint challenges

--Plus 60+ synopsis reviews of major authors on free will and foreknowledge

Grasshopper Challenges Classical Theism

Paige — you have a great day.

I am off this morning to Houston for a doctor’s appointment; my liver enzymes have been wacko for 7 years, and even after two biopsies they have not determined the cause other than a little fat in the liver. Later tonight, I shall participate in a 23-year anniversary of a dear woman's service to prison ministry.

And the last of my grandparents passed away this weekend in California (Grandpa and Grandma together within a month). Sadly, it appears like there was severe neglect and perhaps some hastening of their demise according to several parties—that is being looked into—and the greed, as it appears Grandpa had a good deal of money. You've seen the scenarios.

I reveal all of above, especially the last two paragraphs, to ask for prayer for wisdom. I believe you a man of prayer, and I have been asking the same from many prayer warriors for these things—especially about my grandparents. I truly need wisdom for my part in these matters.

Sincerely, Mike — ###

[And I sent Patterson an attachment that included the above]

Top

Introduction

1. Maness Initial E-mail to Bill Gordon: 9-9-4, 10 AM

2. Maness Initial Question to Tal Davis: 9-9-04, 8 PM

3. Tal Davis 1st and Only Reply: 9-13-04, 9 AM

4. Bill Gordon’s Response: 9-13-04, 3 PM

5. Maness Question to Tal Davis 1st Try: 9-14-04, 8 AM

6. Maness Question to Tal Davis 2nd & Last Try: 9-14-04, 6 PM

7. Paige Patterson E-mail to Maness: 9-30-4, 4 PM

8. Maness Response to Patterson: 9-14-4, 6 PM

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